The Haven Exchange

Separating Art from Artist - Haven Exchange #66

• Haven Exchange • Season 1 • Episode 66

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Can we separate art from the artist?  Global icons, stunning athletes, creators in all mediums, we see from time to time the true nature of these artists through convictions, allegations, faux pas, fumbles and the like. Do these negative actions reflect on their work? Tune in as we discuss this subject and give our opinions across a handful of notable figures and how it has affected their work in our minds. 

Do you keep art separated from the artist? Let us know! 

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Genesis:

Welcome to The Haven exchange podcast number 66. We have a brand new episode for you this week and we are asking the question and you separate art from the artist, or at what point do the negative actions of the musician, actor, athlete etc reflect back upon their works or creations. This was a tricky one and one that can make you think. Ultimately, it is a personal choice, but keep on listening to catch our opinions on the subject. And a side note, I love seeing our older episodes continue to get listens. And that falls perfectly with our goal of being a pick your poison style show. Though, if you're new to the Haven exchange, be sure to browse our entire catalogue of episodes and pick a topic you find most interesting. And don't forget to share it. Alright, it's time to get cringy with celebs This is Haven exchange number 66 separating art from the artist. This

Rick:

is the Haven exchange? What if every time you snap your fingers someone died? But how

Genesis:

do you go down that rabbit hole I

Rick:

just noticed like now I was really thinking about like the butterfly fed Right? And how one thing happened someplace and on the other side of the world whatever tab and then I started thinking about what if our if you believe in God and everything what if your access to heaven was based on not just whether or not you kill people in real life, but video game deaths as well. Every one of every time you killed someone no matter what it is gaming whatever the case may be God's looking into life.

Genesis:

As always take the good route and video games, let's say

Sage:

video games. I mean if a video game life matters, books matter. I mean every time you stepped on a plant and it died that matters. I mean you so you're just doomed to fucking murder people your entire life

Genesis:

so you gotta watch the good place to be or get points for literally everything you do positive or negative

Rick:

I have watched well I will when I play games I do choose the good route I know it's been your fault but you still like when in a game like Uncharted you're the good guy but I mean let's be honest Nathan Drake is a mass murderer like he you're killing like 100,000 people per game you're just murdering a bunch of people.

Genesis:

So when you say rabbit hole these are just rabbit holes in your own head because when we talk about rabbit holes it's like you're you're on YouTube and you're searching something in particular and then that leads you to something and then that leads you to something the rabbit hole but you just said I rabbit hole snapping my fingers instantly kills somebody random on the planet I'm trying to figure out what that Google search was or what even is on the rabbit hole

Sage:

how to kill people mind

Rick:

watching them myself

Genesis:

or agenda I

Rick:

know a lot of it was just watching panels to snap like 100 time.

Genesis:

I guess that is the equivalent to snap right? Would you all do that then

Rick:

Oh snap. Would you take all life if you could

Genesis:

kind of question is that I would

Rick:

happily I probably would.

Genesis:

entirety of the universe

Sage:

that a question is too many people. better question is Was you do the Thanos snap, knowing that the snap still applies to you as well.

Rick:

All I gotta take myself up.

Sage:

Yeah. Yeah,

Rick:

I mean, I probably still would like to

Genesis:

said nobody ever.

Rick:

No kidding. I'm kidding. Now,

Genesis:

there's this species that's across five galaxies. All they do is produce planets for the universe to survive. Like it's this whole entire ecosystem that we're not even aware of each planet is like a cell within our body that's needed in this sort of combined effort to really grow any sort of humanity and you just stand Oh, snap those people.

Sage:

You just had to bring aliens into this into of course,

Genesis:

if you're talking about the universe, you might as well talk about aliens too, because you're talking about just half earth.

Sage:

No, we're talking about aliens to first and foremost Sigourney Weaver has to survive. No, no, she

Genesis:

may or may not. That's a risk you're going to take what a Thanos snap.

Sage:

No, nobody got that over

Genesis:

because she You was in the movie Aliens.

Sage:

Hey, yeah, hey, yes, yeah,

Genesis:

I obviously I got somebody else here probably didn't.

Rick:

Well, first of all, how effing dare you. Second of all, I didn't hear that my girls were making noise I muted it.

Sage:

So if you snapped them, they wouldn't be making noise.

Genesis:

What happens if you snap and half your kids go

Rick:

away? No matter what if I hold their hands while I do the snap? Are they protected to

Sage:

memories? If you snap you're also included in SNAP. fair game.

Genesis:

Wasn't everybody holding on to Thanos his hand when he did the snap?

Rick:

No. No, he just Well, I think when he did the snap the first time, the war had his Stormbreaker. He had it so technically, yeah. First of all, I understand this is Disney. But if you're about to take it down a madman, why are you not automatically going for the hit?

Sage:

Because he just he wanted to remain or he wanted to see him suffer. I'm sorry. Adi people that sit there and say after the new Spider Man movie, that Peter Parker has had the worst? Fuck ya. So I've been through some shit. Yeah.

Genesis:

We only know part of it.

Sage:

Like this man in the span of 10 years lost his planet. His eye? His mom his dad. His brother, his sister who he didn't really like that much but still lost her.

Genesis:

We don't even know how old he is right? Thinking like 1500 Yeah So 10 years out of the 1500 went through some shit

Sage:

oh any losses girl got her back if you've seen the new movie we already know what happened

Rick:

we lost an eye

Sage:

and he still was there handling business are lower bid you

Genesis:

don't need to disrespect them like that.

Sage:

Star Wars reason that even got to end game they could have ended up doing their thing they had it.

Rick:

They literally headed in a fucked up. Well not they fucked up StarLord falls

Sage:

for a minute. We're having a movie conversation and Derek is actually keeping up.

Genesis:

Smile applause

Rick:

was Marvel. I've seen all these Marvel movies. I've seen all the show's Marvel amalan

Genesis:

not just YouTube dancing. No.

Rick:

You know how can you YouTube a marvel? I guess you can YouTube them now but no doing exactly the spoilers and shit. I go see those movies as close to opening night as possible.

Genesis:

Well, let me ask you guys this. Now if Thanos let's say you know the Avengers didn't overthrow him. anos does the snap. Well actually, we had what the five years between the snap and when they corrected everything. So within that five years, let's say Thanos comes out with one mixtapes ever. This mixtape ever, like are you still bopping to it?

Rick:

100% 100% 100% Because it's gonna incarcerate

Genesis:

half your family.

Sage:

He's been at Hearthfire who don't who are arguing?

Genesis:

Well, that's what we're gonna find out on this episode. Welcome everybody to another episode. My name is Genesis one of the CO hosts here on your weekly podcast of news shenanigans, pop culture and things that Rick has never heard of. Who is Rick, might you ask? Who do we have with us tonight?

Rick:

What's going on? Yo,

Genesis:

what's up? No. And, and we also have some extra I was like, Okay.

Rick:

I've been practicing that thought about doing some extra.

Sage:

Using the picture of the dude yelling at himself in the mirror. I can do better than that with him at home.

Rick:

Oh my god.

Sage:

Yeah, this is Sage, no gimmicky name today.

Genesis:

Let's go it is illness. We use the real sage.

Sage:

Nobody gets there. Otherwise I'd be in jail.

Genesis:

All right. Well, Rick, why don't you tell everybody what we're going to be talking about today and why you want to talk about it.

Rick:

So today's topic, can we separate the art from the artist? We know that there are a lot of celebrities out there who do a lot of foul shit, right. Oh, they also happen to be kind of top of the class in their field.

Sage:

So celebrities are infallible.

Rick:

I mean, they are they are Johnny Depp. You know.

Sage:

That's a Google word for some of you listeners.

Genesis:

Financial speller farm

Sage:

know what it means to pronounce it.

Rick:

Hey,

Genesis:

Fallon, Jimmy Fallon.

Sage:

Jimmy Fallon got it.

Rick:

I mean here. So yeah, that I was really thinking about this because there was an actor that was recently in news and they are in a lot of hot water. And it kind of got me thinking, can we still support their movie? After everything that they've been doing over the last couple of months? You know, it just kind of went down this long rabbit hole of just I've got about about 20 different artists or celebrities instead of ours.

Sage:

Why are you being cryptic? We don't notice them on the fucker who is

Rick:

well, I guess I can start with that. So the first person and the reason why I said there because their pronouns are they them. Ezra Miller think he did now go back to him. I don't think he's a non binary anymore

Sage:

to go to jail. All right, Miller.

Rick:

So as Ron Miller is, I guess the shortest answer is he's the flash in the DC universe. Right? See the live action?

Sage:

I'm gonna say the shortest answer. He's a he's a professional fuckup.

Genesis:

I haven't actually heard anything. Oh, yeah.

Sage:

How have you not?

Rick:

Every time you look up in the news, this man,

Genesis:

I've already dismissed DC completely. So there's that's one reason web execs

Sage:

have to be sweating every morning when they check the news.

Genesis:

So Ezra Miller was also the CWs flash or is that a different actor? That's great. That they pulled them for for the Justice League.

Sage:

Because WB in DC, they're a bunch of fucking idiots. They made this whole universe on the CW, with all these fan favorite actors playing these roles, then they decided, You know what, let's do movies. But we're not going to use any of these fucking guys.

Rick:

I think if I'm not mistaken arrow, verse arrow, and the flash were both already started before the DC. I mean, aside from mana steel, I think, right? Yeah. Everything else was

Sage:

done way out there. And everybody was like, yeah, definitely pick them. And they're like, Nah,

Rick:

we'll use you absolutely shouldn't use grant and arrow came. Stephen Amell. Like, you definitely shouldn't use them for your DC Universe. But back to Ezra Miller. So if you aren't aware, as Ron Miller has been on, like a string of tear over the last like two years, where there was a video of him, allegedly choking a woman in I can't remember what kind of store was but they were in a store. choke the woman. It was weird, too. He was like, Oh, do you want to get choked? Just choked there

Sage:

was crazy. He's like, five, five, maybe 170 pounds soaking wet. Anybody could kick his ass.

Rick:

Not a real threatening person, but because of the mental state there and you can tell there's something wrong. Right there menacing right now. And then there was an incident in Hawaii. I think he threw a chair at a woman. And like, got into a fight at a bar.

Sage:

A couple in Hawaii.

Rick:

Yeah. Type a couple in Hawaii. Oh, and then he allegedly remember we have to say a legend. You know, can't you know? Well then there's also the grooming allegations where he befriended a mom and there I think she was like 15 at the time when the when Ezra got into the picture and kind of morphed her to also then be trans and to just completely go down this life of crime, like stealing drugs, all kinds of shit.

Sage:

took her to Canada. Yeah,

Rick:

he lives for Canada and then is and then very recently, I think he vandalize the farm in Vermont. Or not only did he vandalize the farm but then they also found him with a load of guns and ammunition.

Sage:

Oh so you didn't hear one from yesterday yesterday he's on fucking criminal charges because he broke into a liquor store and stole a shit ton of alcohol so now he's up for criminal felony too.

Genesis:

Yeah, wow the spiral this sounds like fucking self destructiveness

Sage:

professional fuck up.

Rick:

There was some rumors that the behavior kind of started around was it like 2011 for a little bit, and then just ever since 2020 just shit has just gone completely down. Now, I don't know if it was COVID related because like the very first incident was on April 6, right we're a couple weeks into lockdown. So I don't know if maybe that triggered something

Genesis:

their acting career taken.

Sage:

Only till recently well, maybe a month ago because of the action because everything web to kind of like it wouldn't happen and for the longest time And then they're finally like, alright

Rick:

so this is some of as far as accolades for movies, right? They were in Batman v Superman, which I know whatever. Side squad for a second as the Flash. They've also been in all the fantastic beasts movies like credence barebone. Yeah.

Sage:

I didn't put two and two together. And I'm barely

Genesis:

paid attention to those garbage movies.

Rick:

And then they have two movies coming out. movies coming out very soon to dolly land and the flesh, both of which are

Sage:

in post production. He coming out with flesh.

Rick:

No, no. And he was also in episode of the peacemaker, as the flesh. That's another one.

Sage:

That was hilarious. I'm not gonna like his little performance.

Rick:

But like this dude, it's not like his career was going downhill. It was very much on the rise. So this is completely self inflicted. Now, there had been speculation that maybe Hollywood's kind of like a cesspool for like abuse and all kinds of shifts. I wouldn't be surprised if someone talked to them. And then that kind of triggered something.

Sage:

My thing with him is everything he's done, he's been saying that oh, it was all in defense of like transphobia and shit like that. And I'm like, I feel like you're just using this as a fucking excuse now to just be a straight

Genesis:

Yeah, like, steal a bunch of alcohol. In the name of trans rights I don't really see the confusion unless

Rick:

I know Genesis you probably aren't familiar with the Instagram video that he posted but he also went on Instagram rant about the kk k apparently he's at war with a certain sector of the kk k and just was like, if you want to go kill yourself that's fine. Not you know where to find me. Oh, yeah,

Sage:

I remember that. Like,

Genesis:

like challenging the kk k? Yeah, dude. For me, I guess. I mean, I don't see a problem with that.

Rick:

I'm not I don't but I was probably gonna have problem with it. But I think it's one of

Genesis:

those the guy that wants to Thanos snap. Do you

Rick:

like how could that would that be if you did this snap and like for some reason, all the kk k

Genesis:

can I snap again?

Rick:

Like, what if the snap save like all the worst people?

Genesis:

That's I mean, statistically, that's possible.

Rick:

It's very likely Yeah. Because if it's random, you're not going to get all the bad ones. The universe.

Genesis:

Just all K K. K survived. Fuck.

Rick:

So yeah, I mean,

Genesis:

so it adds rest. So I guess to go with the topic here is does the actions of Ezra change how we look at you know, their film work?

Sage:

Right. Can you want he's literally done nothing of note for me to give a fuck about him.

Rick:

Yeah, I agree. Because Kay's version of the Flash I think is weird. I don't care for his work flash,

Sage:

Grant Gustin a little whereas he was a little bit, you know, on the crybaby, and I liked his flash much

Rick:

more. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the show was pretty good. So I definitely until

Sage:

they became very repetitive with oh, that's another Speedster. It's another spinner. I'm like I'm done with this.

Genesis:

Well, how is social media and the news media outlets? Are they vying for Ezra Miller's cancellation?

Sage:

Everybody agrees that he's crazy. There's no debate. Everybody's like,

Genesis:

but you said that he's in the future Fantastic Beasts like are they trying to pull that or do any alterations to this if he got

Sage:

kicked out of the flash? There's no way he's in the future. Fantastic. He's like they basically did cancel. Yeah, they flat he fucking drugged their feet about it. But yeah, they finally like nah. Like the there's only so much we can try to cover I think he would just try to see how much fucking shit he could get away with.

Genesis:

So they necessarily cancel him but he's if he has canceled himself

Sage:

Yeah, if he gets another acting role in the next five to six years I will be surprised.

Genesis:

How are we seeing what's his name make a comeback from a lot of bad shit. I and MAN Yeah.

Sage:

That was self inflicted. He was a drug. He was a drug addict, right? Yeah, he wouldn't out here beaten people for no goddamn reason.

Rick:

He wasn't he wasn't the literal Joker. I mean, that's what it was pretty much become.

Genesis:

That's wild.

Sage:

I mean, we did watch a YouTube estimate even like, how was he still acting? Like

Genesis:

that's what I thought when I heard all this shit about sucking Marky Mark. I had no idea.

Sage:

Yeah, he's be shit.

Genesis:

No clue the best of that man. Yeah. Piece of shit. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the stuff you mentioned. I mean, I guess the choking you said that they choked a woman for just Out of nowhere.

Rick:

Yeah, it was not, you know, at the choking incident, I believe it was something. They were just like, oh, it says that they were at a bar that he frequently goes to. And it says, yeah, it was just an argument and then he just choked. It didn't really seem like there was too much that really led up to it. I actually, you know, there was another video, where and I this is why it's pretty much confirmed it's mental illness of some sort, obviously, right. But he is being detained by the police and like in the middle of the cop patting him down. I mean, just goes on this weird rant about I'm trans. I don't want the

Genesis:

police or what, arresting them or something or trying to white handcuff Ezra, and they're just sitting there spouting off or, you know, hey, I want a female police officer to do this. Is that basically what happened?

Rick:

Yeah, basically, I'm going to read this paragraph, and it's going to pretty much sum up that whole thing because this was all in Hawaii and this was all this year. Mark. Okay.

Sage:

He did so much in Hawaii like Hawaii, states like just

Rick:

thing had to advance. Like, you're not allowed in this country for

Sage:

this. What again?

Genesis:

I was gonna say,

Rick:

I didn't mean to say country. State. I don't know why I say country you're not allowed this state. Okay, so it says on March 28 2022, Miller was arrested in Hawaii following an alleged physical altercation with patrons after having hurled obscenities at clients at a karaoke bar and was charged with disorderly conduct and harassment. However, three weeks later on April 19, Miller was again taken into custody for third degree assaults where police authorities in PA hola I guess

Sage:

don't ask me

Rick:

for for allegedly throwing a chair which hit a 26 year old woman and let the half inch cut on her forehead after being told to leave during a private get together. Miller had then been arrested 20 minutes after the attack during a traffic stop on highway 30. Wow, all of al Qaeda Am I just says just hours after that second arrest. He pleaded no contest to the karaoke incident. It was fine. It was only fined $500 for disorderly conduct. And then two months later in June

Sage:

to be white in America.

Genesis:

Why it's a different country.

Rick:

Shut up. Shut up. Shut off the ESB do me a favor edit that out. So they just sound stupid. They don't like there's no context to what we do just Ezra has been on an absolute, like tear through Hawaii Sandy. And like

Sage:

I'm looking at right now. So not only was he accused of the whole grooming thing, but apparently he also started a coat.

Genesis:

Yeah, sounds about right with what I'm hearing. I'm not surprised.

Sage:

The news minutes. He's a fucking minutes. Okay.

Genesis:

I mean, it feels like a cult leaders name though.

Sage:

It kind of goes on.

Rick:

My nephew's name is I don't know if I agree with that. I guess we'll see in a couple you see, right. If he joins or creates a call them. All right, you have you have evidence to recommend

Genesis:

a friendly call. It doesn't have to be a bad call.

Rick:

That's true. That's true.

Sage:

I will say this though. If I had to take place a bet on who I thought was going to lose it the most between Ezra and Kanye my all my money would have been on Kanye.

Rick:

I mean, to be fair, I think they both have lost their mind. I think the only difference is is Kanye is is is technically not illegal.

Genesis:

Like and I'm really hurting anybody. Right, right. Well, no. I mean,

Rick:

you could definitely say he's hurting Kim K with her relationships and shit like that. And he's really going a little too aggressive. I can't get like, Bro. She doesn't

Sage:

qMk is hard. And Kim came in here reflecting on me.

Rick:

I mean, that's true. That's true.

Sage:

She's a professional horse. Let's be real. Whoa, she's

Rick:

all right now. So it says we spend enough time on Ezra. So are we all in agreement? I mean, I guess we don't really know. I mean, can you watch the flash? Yeah. Well, I

Genesis:

mean, yeah, I think that's the question. Right. And I think a lot of these I mean, it's good that we kind of are going to look at these case by case. I think generally speaking, I mean, at least for me, I can keep it separate. You know, especially you know, when you're thinking of an actor, does that ruin the entirety of the movie and you have all these other actors and production team that goes behind? In putting these pieces of content together,

Sage:

honestly, for me, if they come up with a flash movie, I'm not gonna watch it. That being said, if they decided fuck it, they're into the curve and come out with the Joker movie as him. I'm all in.

Genesis:

So as remailer should play a villain and you'll be okay.

Sage:

No, not a villain. He should play the Joker because he's already doing in real life. So it's not okay. It's gonna be epic.

Genesis:

I don't know. But like you're saying, but as the Flash though, you wouldn't see that, specifically due to his actions in real life.

Sage:

Probably has nothing to do from being real has nothing to his actions. I just wouldn't don't see the movie to begin with. Because that Grant Gustin I don't really give a shit. But his accent didn't help. I mean, it made for great news, because every day I'm like, Oh, what did this crazy motherfucker do today?

Rick:

Right. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so I think I can kind of echo what you said. I'm still gonna see the flat 20. Well, yeah, if they if they release it, which is also weird to watch. That's fine. But you cancel. Bad Girl, for whatever reason, which would have given us Brendan Fraser as a villain, which would have been dope. And then Michael Keaton would have been in it. That girl

Sage:

has been on a fucking thread since it came out. That girl, and I met one

Rick:

CW that want to stay on topic. Remind me I do want to ask you all what's your favorite? Well, we could talk about that Off mic. But I mean, if you bring it

Sage:

up, just ask.

Rick:

But then this assholes viewer aecb Good tip.

Genesis:

So what's the next celebrity? Yes. All

Rick:

right. So so I

Genesis:

think I'm up. So then.

Rick:

So the next one I have here, and I think this one might be a little difficult. Kevin Spacey. Ah, Kevin. Spacey is a great actor. Right? He's in some of my favorite movies like a negotiator. One of my favorite movies.

Sage:

I actually just watched that again for maybe eight times the other

Rick:

day. Such a good movie. I love them.

Sage:

I'm kind of in a weird boat with it because I get what he did was fucked up. And then and then him trying to cop out. Oh, by the way, like nobody actually

Genesis:

didn't start from the beginning and what his offenses were and the adventure that

Rick:

so it all came crumbling down for him in 2017. Right. There's an actor.

Sage:

That was Corey Feldman that caught him out. No,

Rick:

the very first accusation was Anthony Rapp. I think Anthony Rapp is on that.

Sage:

Yeah, he's really, he's, he's from rent. He was a well, I want the musical version of Psych. Z, Justin. Oh, okay. That's Anthony Rapp. He's from he from Juliet. Awesome at him.

Rick:

He's also in a show that Seth MacFarlane show the Orville. Yeah, he hasn't. That's the most I think that's the most recent thing. He had been in Star Trek Discovery. Oh, was he in?

Sage:

he's most famous for rent because he was from the original Broadway cast. Never saw just different like that.

Rick:

No, no, I didn't never heard of it. Okay, so rap alleges that spacey basically made a sexual advance towards him when he was 14. Right. And then there were a few other they, they're all pretty much anonymous. I don't think there's any like, I think Corey Feldman is one that's not anonymous, but for the most part, a lot of anonymous people have come out saying that, you know, they either had a sexual relationship with spacey when they were 14 or 15.

Genesis:

Okay, I was like, Wait, why is that a problem?

Rick:

They were all 14.

Genesis:

Like this is all underage.

Sage:

Which really makes you think about American Beauty in a different light. Yeah.

Rick:

I got one. Yeah, well, yeah. So there's another one Justin door that said that he made America

Sage:

you've never seen American Beauty heavy. No,

Rick:

Justin Dawn's he told BuzzFeed that spacey made sexual advances in 1988 When dogs was 16 and spacey was 29. Wow. Yeah. And a lot of it is all like spacey gave them alcohol or they woke up to spacey laying on top of them

Genesis:

is Bill Cosby shit with drugs involved. Well, nation and shit or

Rick:

no, the ones that are anonymous. They all kind of have not the same story not to downplay are the same, but rap is the only one that said they were at a party. And then I think rap was drunk, or like under the influence of some sort. And spacey picked him up, took them to the bedroom, and just was lying on top of them. Yeah, that's

Genesis:

kind of creepy. Super creepy. But,

Rick:

I mean, this was in 1986. Right. And so it's weird for a case like this, because how do you prove something like that? Aside from ease, he said,

Sage:

um, they did it for Bill. So

Rick:

yeah, that's true. Let's see what they also got Bill, kind of admitting to it, saying, hey, you know, I would take drugs all the time with people and all that kind of shit, because Bill Cosby is definitely on this list if you didn't know.

Genesis:

Well, I mean, I guess like, I don't know, if this went to, to the courts, or if it's still ongoing, but I would imagine like, after Anthony Rapp sort of speaks out to this about like this prominent celebrity, right. And then you get a bunch of people that come out in saying, Oh, I had this similar experience, there's gonna be some evidence amongst, you

Sage:

know, somewhere, and that's where the PSA de resistance. That's where that happened. Because out of Hoover coming out, then at a random award show, had nothing to do about that, about any of that. He was like, so I'm gay. And we're like, what? Nobody fucking asked you.

Rick:

Yeah. Not only that, but like, I think it's pretty well known that his father was abusive to him and his brother. So I think he tried to use that as an excuse. Okay, because now so it is in the courts. He

Genesis:

admitted this, then, never actually,

Rick:

no, he's denied all of it. But he isn't. He is scheduled to go to UK for trial in June of next year. But it was recently ruled that a Los Angeles judge has ruled that spacey must pay almost $31 million to the makers of House of Cards. After they fired him, because he was allegedly sexually harassing multiple crew members while on the show. Oh, yeah. Is this Yeah, this it's like there's a reason why he's closely compared to Harvey Weinstein. There's way too many accusations from it's almost not let's

Sage:

be real. The only reason that he has to pay that much money to the creators of House of Cards is because they were already in the middle of their filming their new season.

Genesis:

Yeah, they're losing out on all that revenue. winfuture

Sage:

All this happened. And they they had the fire scenario, like what the fuck?

Rick:

pillar of the shadow faith of it. Yeah. But I mean, the show was already going downhill from there well before his allegations, but I don't know if they legally can make you pay for something like they fired him. They didn't have to fire him. Right. Yeah, no.

Sage:

breach of contract can be a breach of contract most most lies that he's guilty of whatever. Most most contracts have morality clauses and it's somewhere.

Rick:

Right, but I feel like legally, can't you fight that and be like, How can you say that I did this when you don't have any proof that I actually do? Yeah.

Genesis:

And I'm sure I mean, that could be what comes after maybe a not guilty verdict

Rick:

from he could probably countersue maybe, right? Like, Hey, fuck you. I was found innocent. So I want my 31 mil back.

Genesis:

Okay, so the timeline is out. So Anthony Rapp comes out and says these, Kevin Spacey may

Rick:

be angry, wrapped, started the whole thing.

Genesis:

And then other people came out or then this the award ceremony.

Sage:

Other people came out, came out.

Genesis:

And then he just said, Okay, I'm gay whilst denying all these allegations. So he was totally trying to shift the

Sage:

shift the focus 100% Yeah.

Rick:

You know who Richard Dreyfus is? Yeah. His son Harry Dreyfus, alleges that spacey groped him when he was 18 in 2008

Sage:

Well, that's not really right. I mean, he's at No, I mean,

Rick:

grope is still like it's still unsolved. Like it's legal.

Sage:

He was out. He was old enough to fight back.

Genesis:

It's Kevin Spacey though.

Rick:

This is funny. Here's another one. In 2008, an anonymous man in Scotland, woke up to spacey billowing. When he was 23 Yeah, he said spacey invited him to his home in London to help him with his career. He says they smoke some weed passed out and then when he woke up, he was doing that.

Sage:

I'm sorry. He's an idiot for that. I'm sorry. Don't get me wrong. I mean, spacey is still definitely terrible for doing that. But that guy is also an idiot. He's 23 guys like, oh yeah, come back to my house and help you with your career. This is Hollywood talking about. If an actor fails to come back to his house, he's gonna hit me with career, some freaky shit about to go now. We're not about to go there and fire. We're not about to go there and run lines. I mean, we're probably going to run lines off the table, but we're not fucking running lines.

Genesis:

Now, what year that is that happened 2008 Okay, I mean, that's still fairly recent enough. But that what, what I was trying to think of was that we have a very different picture of Hollywood today than we did 20 years ago, to where we kind of have these I mean, less and less like stereotypes because of all the

Sage:

knew what the fuck was up. Right,

Genesis:

right. So like, Yeah, I mean, but maybe not everybody assumed that everybody was just bad and nasty and gross.

Rick:

Well, you didn't think that about every holiday? Well, at least, we might have thought that back in 2008. But I mean, yeah, I think it was taken.

Sage:

I think it was 2008 or 2009, something like that. Our scene was bartending. And I would go to this bar and the bar owner would sit down like, oh, yeah, I'm really good friends with, like Brian McKnight or whatever would call them on the phone was like, I can't Why don't you come over? You know, we can get up. He was gay. He's like, why don't you come over, whatever. You know, we can get them on phones, like nah, I'm okay.

Genesis:

I'm on the phone like now. You

Sage:

can call them here. He's like, no, no, we can take a flat out to calculate now. I'm straight.

Genesis:

Yeah, that sounds like some ulterior motive.

Rick:

Oh, for sure. For sure. And I mean, it looks like the latest. Yeah. 2016 There is a news anchor that alleges spacey sexually assaulted her 18 year old son.

Sage:

So at least he's consistent. You know, he knows what he likes.

Rick:

Boys. And I guess I guess that's one way of looking at it.

Genesis:

Right. I mean, does this need a silver lining? i That's.

Rick:

Yeah, I'm not really sure what that was. I don't know what you're doing.

Sage:

I'm just here. I'm here to talk shit. It's always

Genesis:

on the bright side of life.

Sage:

Is it just me because I feel like it might be just me. Because when all this shit hit the fan. I stopped watching so many movies because of that. And I didn't want to watch the gladiator because I confuse Kevin Spacey and Russell Crowe all the fucking time

Genesis:

that's an interesting slob. I don't know how you how you got that in your head.

Sage:

The motherfuckers look so much like nothing.

Rick:

Totally different. I guess.

Sage:

I mean, Russell Crowe is also an asshole. Yeah,

Rick:

he has. He has this whole thing about him too, right?

Sage:

Yeah, he has a whole different thing about him just beaten up fucking fans for no reason

Rick:

that fans need to you know back up longer to glow.

Genesis:

It depends on the situation.

Rick:

Let me put this out here. Now if this podcast ever gets that big to where like I'm recognized on the street. Don't get too close. Okay, like we could shake hands. He could come up on me but if I don't get

Sage:

in this ever gets so big that he is recognized. Please get very close. I will hold him

Genesis:

he's gonna have fans on him while he's on the other day.

Sage:

Why is he honored today in public? Let's talk about this for a second.

Genesis:

There gonna be installed in public restrooms across the globe.

Rick:

They need to be somebody need to wash their hands. So you clearly don't don't do a good job. today to help out with that.

Sage:

I don't even know why I'm taking

Rick:

any anyway. So are we all in agreement with like, Does this change anything for you all for a space?

Genesis:

This one definitely does for me this is this is different than as Miller at least you know, I mean, who knows what else is gonna come out of Ezra Miller stuff but I mean, Kevin Spacey This shit is just pretty foul and gross like that. It's really hard. Like even if everybody a part of these big cast, like I said earlier, like you have a whole team that's putting this content together and it's not all just, you know, held up as a foundation for this one actor but it makes it really hard to watch it though with him. It's rough

Sage:

because like I say it is Ezra Miller. He doesn't really have a body of work for us to really get attached.

Genesis:

Yeah, it's not as important Exactly.

Sage:

Kevin Spacey. We kind of, you know, kind of grew up watching us do. That's like you tell me Robin Williams was out here touching kids. I'm like, No, say no. It's rough. So I mean, when I heard it, and I start coming out, I was like, I can't rock with Kevin no more with sucks. Cuz as you say a negotiator is a great fucking movie. Yeah.

Rick:

So speaking of brotherhood, and how there's a team of people doing Roseanne noir, I am familiar with why she's in trouble.

Genesis:

Can't remember exactly what she said. She got in trouble a few times. So I believe

Sage:

she's been extra racist.

Rick:

She has been racist independent. I think the first one was when this is rough. This is right up your alley, though. Jen, where she says anyways, oh, so she was doing a photoshoot where she was wearing kitchen housewife outfit or whatever. She had the hair mustache on. And she was baking cookies. And she was implying the cookies were Jews. And that's pretty horrible.

Genesis:

Right. Okay. What's the context of this?

Rick:

I don't know. Actually. I don't think she I think she wanted to be funny. I don't think they've ever.

Sage:

I've never liked Roseanne. I never thought she was funny. I hated the show. Yeah.

Genesis:

Oh, you guys are hurting me? Yeah. Roseanne was a fantastic show. And it was set in Illinois.

Sage:

While you're watching Roseanne, we were watching. You know, family matters. I was watching that to Fresh Prince or world. Full house.

Genesis:

Yeah, I watched all those as well. Roseanne, however, I could relate to you know, it was a poor white family that seems similar to my family, you know?

Rick:

Are they really poor? They weren't poor. They're like,

Sage:

they had like a five bedroom house. I'm not sure they were poor.

Rick:

Like no, they

Genesis:

were planning. Well, you must not have seen the show then very much because they were definitely

Sage:

not would have five fucking bedroom house. They were not born. They were pulling

Genesis:

my Landford Illinois, poor by white standards are one step above like, like trailer trash, which is

Sage:

eight steps above Blackboard.

Rick:

Shows go, then I guess. So. So Right. Right.

Genesis:

That was she portrayed?

Rick:

That was a few years ago. But what really like, took her over the edge in 2018. She basically was attacking the former White House adviser Valerie Jarrett. Right. And she went on the tweet and said the tweet said, Muslim Brotherhood and Planet of the Apes had a baby. Equals Valerie Jarrett. Now Roseanne claims. She did not know that the woman she was attacking was black. She did not know that. And so I feel like you saying the Muslim Brotherhood. And Planet of the Apes. Like I feel like you knew she wasn't white. Those are two very specific attacks to specific. You couldn't have thought she was white. You knew she was something other than white? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you wouldn't call her that if you thought she was white.

Sage:

Well, I feel like it was a mixture of that. And I know some of our listeners might might not like this, but she was very pro Trump.

Rick:

She was very pro Trump.

Sage:

And at the time, I mean, it was the cool thing to do in certain circles. But the vast majority was not pro Trump.

Rick:

Yeah. But she's one of the weird ones, though, because she was an avid Obama supporter when he ran. Yeah, he's like one of those ones that flipped after Obama.

Sage:

Yeah, because if you remember correctly, Tim Allen went through a similar thing. Yes, he was very pro Trump. And everybody started not watching his new show because of that, but he just doubled down.

Rick:

He doubled down. He's like someone else on this list that they double down on their pro Trump a pro conservative stance, and it worked in their favor, because the conservatives actually backed him up. Roseanne, however, was very much like a Bernie Sanders supporter before Trump and everybody, everybody, every year, fuck you if you didn't vote for Bernie. But for Tulsi Gabbard and one of the two either would have been fine. But yeah, she doesn't have the conservative people on her back because she is a very recent Trump supporter. You know, whereas Tim Allen was kind of like they've always kind of been conservative. They're like the the white dad's that kind of, you know, Christian conservative, that kind of, you know, that area. So, I mean, her stuff is awful, but then she also has the history. I mean, this was in 2009 when she dressed up as Hitler for that picture.

Sage:

You know how to melons whole career started, right? No, he, okay. He went to jail for fucking cocaine. I think I do. And when he was in jail, It was like, I never come back here and just started writing.

Genesis:

his mugshot is hilarious if you've never seen it used to look at his mug shot from back in the day.

Rick:

I don't I don't want to tarnish his image more because I actually liked him Allah.

Sage:

He's a saint. He's Santa Claus, you know? Yeah, exactly. Oh, really kill

Rick:

that image. So, Jen, it sounds like you're more of a fan of roseanne. Does this kill the show for you?

Genesis:

No, it doesn't. Yeah, no, I, I mean, I think it's easy to just sort of defend her with saying a she's a convenient that's what comedians do. Right. That's bold defender. Cuz I see the way you're, you're about to make some connections. But I mean, when even with the Hillary thing, I mean, how many stand up set we've seen on Comedy Central like roasts where you know, all they do is make a Hitler and do jokes. And that gets

Sage:

fair. That's fair, in the context of what it's what they're doing. Like, if it's a stand up or something like that, that's fine. But she's saying like, Hey, these are my views. This person is this this in this mix together? That's very deliberate. That's not really a joke. That's, that's you attacking somebody.

Genesis:

She is attacking. Yes. And trying to be funny, which it clearly wasn't. But she was playing the game. She was playing the Twitter game, she had to understand that that shit that she's going to put out there like that is going to have repercussions. And it looks like it did you know, we got her new, the new show the Conners. You know, they kicked her right off of that, which I'm kind of glad that they didn't cancel it outright because it's not fair to the other actors. Right, right. So I'm glad that they kept it going. And I mean, going back to Kevin Spacey, I don't I've never seen House of Cards. So I don't know how important his role was.

Sage:

He was the first

Rick:

one was incredible.

Genesis:

So there's no way they could have finished.

Sage:

They finished it with them, but okay, they just finished the rest of that season and caught a day.

Rick:

They just finished the show because I think they were planning on ending the show after we

Sage:

had another season and then we're gonna end it.

Rick:

But then you know, with Roseanne real quick before we move on to the next one, I think a big part of also why she was on her way out was you know, she's a big conspiracy. There's too. Yeah, she was heavy into like Seth Rich and pizza gate and spy gate and Q anon and all that shit.

Genesis:

She's a rich woman.

Rick:

I agree on all that except Seth. Rich. That's battleship.

Genesis:

You don't know what that is?

Sage:

About? Roseanne? Okay. Why? I wasn't super surprised. But what she said. Do you know who she was married to?

Rick:

Yes. Tom Marnell does anything. Are you talking about someone else? Yeah, Tom.

Sage:

I wouldn't when she got married to Dennis Quaid. To know Randy Quaid.

Genesis:

I don't think he was ever married to Randy. I'd known him well. The fucker was great. He was married. I don't think he was married to a celebrity.

Rick:

So are you saying Randy Quaid was a lot like his independence day care?

Genesis:

Yeah, he kinda was. Like, fucking fled the country.

Sage:

Maybe? I thought she was married to Randy quaity. Maybe? Apparently, I'm wrong.

Genesis:

Yes. I think she deserves to get D platformed. You know, because the platform doesn't have any space for that kind of stuff. So that's on her right? Because I don't think it's enough for me to not watch her show. Or like, you know, Braun Roseanne at night to go to sleep to or something to

Sage:

her show me trashes enough not to watch it.

Genesis:

Yeah, right. Okay,

Rick:

so you were ready. But this next person though, I don't think he ever had a conversation with his victims. I think he just went straight to that's disrespectful and I'm

Sage:

sorry if you're gonna if you're gonna say Bill Cosby. I feel like we know all. Well, Bill Cosby on your list. He should not be brought up. Why? Because us, as well as our listeners have heard this enough to wear this. Do we really have anything you have to say about it

Rick:

at this point? No, no. Yeah, him. He's, he was on the list. But yeah, this conversation has been done to death. So I took him off the list, because I don't think there's any Yeah, no, he's off the list. This person though. I think you all both liked him at one point. Danny Masterson ak

Sage:

70 show that hurt my soul so much. Yeah.

Rick:

For those who aren't aware, he is being charged. He's about to go to court if he's not there already. For allegedly raping three women between 2001 and 2003. Yes, three separate women all Between the ages of 23 and 28. I mean, it's not even like, these aren't even stories of just like groping. Oh, he touched me inappropriately, right? These are all all three are straight up, right? Like she he forcibly? Yeah, attack the first of all, you can't defend it, right? Of course you're supposed to say allegedly because you know, there's you know, we don't know for sure it could be a million different scenarios for this the way this plays out. But I've usually kind of always been on the side of if more than one person is saying something happening, I think it's, you know, especially if all three don't have anything to do with each other, like if they're not connected in any

Genesis:

way that would normally agree with you, but I think you have to put on a different lens with celebrities.

Rick:

True. That's true, because they go to all different kinds of parties. Different people. Yeah, that's a very good point. But with this particular one, I mean, it I don't know it just because of, I'm trying to figure out how to put like, I don't know if it's because of them using the word rape. And like, every article about him. Yeah, at some point, it kind of taint your mind a little bit where it's like, you just immediately assume he's guilty. Sure, at least for me. I do. It's

Genesis:

because like, you're gonna go through a lot if that's the claims you're making, you know, especially if you're doing it for anything other than the truth of the situation. Yeah, so it carries a heavy, heavy, heavy thing because of how horrible the act is.

Sage:

I mean, Danny Masterson that hurt me a lot, because so many shows on my favorite fucking shows. Yeah. So when that came, because then they kicked them off that show.

Genesis:

ranch near

Rick:

the ranch. Oh, yeah, that was pretty.

Genesis:

I was digging it to it. It was the one that was watching that. And that's when it all came out. I was like, fuck,

Sage:

that came out. But then I started thinking about it. Shouldn't Ashton Kutcher also be on this list? What do you mean? What did he do? Because he was fucking around with Millia when they were filming, and Millia lied about her age, everybody. She was actually only like, 1415 when they were filming the show.

Genesis:

But they're married.

Sage:

Me now they are.

Genesis:

I mean, sure. I guess they broke the law. But if they were new, she didn't file any charges. No answer. Good.

Sage:

I mean, dude, it was that that hurt. Because, you

Genesis:

know, the guy said changes things when there's consent. I think that's the key thing,

Sage:

but because you know, you know who his brother is, right?

Genesis:

Danny Masterson? Yeah. Who?

Sage:

He's the he's the older brother from Malcolm in the Middle.

Genesis:

Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. And the chick from The Walking Dead. That's a sister. Girl, Tara. Tara. Yeah. A lot of MASTERSON. So um, aren't Kelly MJ and Bill Cosby are probably all lumped into the nobody gives a fuck.

Sage:

I've never really liked Cosby Show, so I don't really care. Wow,

Genesis:

that's kind of blasphemous.

Rick:

Yeah, that he's, I mean, he's right though. I didn't I did not include our Kelly. Or Bill Cosby. I mean, our Kelly was on the list at first, but then I took him off.

Sage:

See our Kelly. Whether he was included or not, I don't care. Because if you're from Chicago, like we are like we already are. We all we all knew y'all just didn't want listen. Yeah.

Genesis:

There was mumblings amongst the people in

Rick:

my high school where he was like, what, five miles from where he lives. All the time about that? Oh,

Sage:

knew y'all didn't want to listen. So I'm like, so when people like oh, how can you still listen are killing with fucking headphones?

Rick:

What I love one of my, one of my exes, she's a ex photographer of his. And I used to ask her all the time, like, Yo, like, I need some stone, like, you know, have you seen anything? And she was like, she's met all the girls that are accusing him. They've all what her side of it was they none of them were there against their own freewill. You know, she was like

Sage:

to be continued I believe to do back when I was big into music, like really trying to go big into music. I spent a lot of time that arcotel Some part for us gang. And you've met Yeah. Oh, no, me and him hate each other.

Rick:

Man. He touched you know, he

Sage:

tried to steal like three of my songs and I wouldn't go because Moses song If you didn't know are stolen. What happened? I've heard that too. What happens is people send him fucking where they used to send him fucking demos, tapes or whatever. It's like, oh yeah, there's my song, but they didn't fucking copyright it or at least do the poor man's fucking copyright where you mail it to yourself and you don't open it. He would then turn around and say that's his fucking song. And they have no proof that it's their song.

Rick:

Yeah, I've heard that before, but he's stolen quite a lot of songs. Yeah, he's,

Genesis:

he's not only just a gross piece of shit, he's also just no general position.

Sage:

We were we were all at the fucking rec one day. We're playing ball. Artillery comes in. He's like, he gets on the court. His team gets fucking smoked. He's like alright, he picks the four best player from the other team because I who got next I'm like no, that's not how this works. You have to you have to court

Genesis:

dude. He's got like three white people to like pick them up to dunk

Sage:

like I don't care who you are you lost Get the fuck off. So okay,

Genesis:

yeah, you still jam to his shit even with the personal Oh

Sage:

yeah, I don't like him as a person at all. I will say I've been saying that for years. I hate him as a person. But that music though.

Rick:

That music do go hard though.

Genesis:

What's different between Kevin Spacey and him because you'd look at Kevin Spacey his work a little differently because of his alley.

Sage:

Which is why this is why it's a tough spot when me and Kevin Spacey because I love the negotiator and I did say I just watched it a couple of months ago

Genesis:

but you felt some kind of way and watching but listening to our Kelly Music It doesn't not affect me at all because it doesn't cross your mind like the dude I'm listening to his gross

Sage:

it does but it also crossed my mind like he probably didn't write this so I'm like okay

Genesis:

like he finds like the excuses to get away.

Rick:

I get it though right because I mean although with our Kelly is a little different though, man because like AJ number that number and considering right Alia what was it? What was she 1514 and some shit like that. He's

Sage:

literally been telling us that jump

Genesis:

resonated very well. Yeah, well, Rick, I know you said like in the last episode we did that you can separate the art from the artist and our Kelly seems to fall into a gray area with you at least what certain songs are ones that are blatant. Like I can?

Rick:

Yeah, but you know what, for me, it's easy to avoid our Kelly music. So I haven't really had to think about it too much. You know, as far as

Sage:

just somebody played at Chocolate Factory.

Rick:

There. His music does go really hard. Yeah,

Genesis:

he peepee poo poo.

Rick:

Oh my goodness. Yeah, but he's his music directly reflects his behavior. But it's hard to know he's right.

Sage:

You know how blatantly he was telling people for the for the longest time. His nickname was the pied piper.

Rick:

Yeah. I remember the first time I found out what the Pied Piper was like all this nigga is tell he'd been out in the open with it and just nobody gives a fuck. What was his sentence? I think he got 30 years. Yeah, he's gonna be 20 years. 25 years.

Genesis:

He's not young either. So he's gonna be what, seven years probably.

Sage:

Fucking life

Rick:

he can't read either. Like his reading is yeah, he came

Sage:

up with that whole song that like my minute song where he was like, explaining everything where he's broke because he can't read he got fucked over on AWS deals.

Genesis:

Like so fucking weirdo. And it was a huge drop out of school. And then he told you to fucking do all that shit.

Rick:

It is important to note that he got 30 years prison I think for his New York case or he has a new case coming

Genesis:

oh so he's probably done life he'd

Rick:

put him on suicide watch and everything

Genesis:

was there anything like it this is all just on him. I imagine like somebody like our Kelly having a group of people like to have all that go either unnoticed are just being done solo seems kind of surprising to me. Like there was nobody else involved with any of this shit.

Sage:

There were probably people there were complacent. Oh, yeah,

Rick:

he Yeah, he definitely had people that helped him get away with this kind of behavior. But like,

Sage:

what, what am I? Yeah, when you're art Kelly, somebody who at the height of his career could literally have whoever the fuck he wanted. You're looking at Babbage, Babbage Babbage. Let me get that little girl. I want why why

Genesis:

will the quote a wise philosopher sage, you know, at least he liked what he liked. That's funny.

Sage:

I mean, but he did stay consistent, you know?

Rick:

Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna bring something up here, it pertains to our Kelly, I need you to follow me here, okay? Because every time I brought this up, people always try to say, Oh, well, it's just excusing what he did. And that's not the case. So if you aren't aware, specifically your Genesis, you might not know. But it is known that he was abused as a child, right? He was abused a lot as a child him and I think his brother was as well. And I'm not saying that as an excuse for why he did what he did. However, I think there's a direct correlation, or obviously, there's a direct correlation between abuse as a child to then abusing as an adult, right.

Sage:

I think as somebody whose parents Whoa, not parents, but mother and sister deliberately tried to kill me on numerous different occasions. Well, I'm

Rick:

not talking about that abuse.

Sage:

I've never I've never once been in my life like you know what, let me fuck a little kid. Know

Genesis:

what the year other actions though? You like happy? You want to Thanh Oh, snap? Think there's correlations to other things? Yeah. People just happened to turn into pedophiles molesters and rapists, right,

Rick:

people? Yeah. And I mean, there's like a real direct correlation between the two, like people who often abused people were once abused themselves. There's a clear line between the two. And so what I'm saying is, I think it's I'm not trying to excuse his behavior, but I'm saying if we can figure out a way to stop the abuse from happening to children, I think we can stop someone else from becoming the next or Kelly,

Genesis:

potentially, but you also have people that have never been abused and still turned out that way. Yeah.

Sage:

I mean, if you look at it in history, the best artists music, fucking painting, acting, whatever, they all come from troubled

Rick:

paths. Yeah. Same thing with the comedian. I mean, virtually all the comedians come from a really fucked up childhood. But they you know, they overcome it, but they're all twisted people. Like they're all really broken. In the sense of like, if you give them the opportunity to kill they probably will take

Genesis:

some self destruct design destruct destroy other people's lives, you know, and that's, I mean, that's just the nature of humanity. We have all these different variables and factors that create us and build us to who we become that the some positives that come out of that is arts and culture and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then there's gonna be the shitty things that come out of this fucking yin yang.

Sage:

All I'm saying is, she saw this coming. She stayed. I saw this coming. I move. When does personal catalyst come into effect? You know,

Genesis:

I don't think that's the argument you should hold in our Kelly's situation.

Sage:

nothing but truth.

Genesis:

That was that where you're pulling it from?

Rick:

Of course. So next on the list after my decided to think this one might be a sore spot for you, Jen. Although you don't think you really care for sports? Michael Vick?

Genesis:

Different approach.

Sage:

I felt that he got a terrible fucking deal. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. Yeah, what he did was fun.

Genesis:

Okay, let's talk about what he did first. I mostly just remember the jokes about it. So like the specifics of the case. I don't know if I'm actually that too familiar with it. I know. It involves dogs. Right and killing dogs. Oh, yeah.

Rick:

He was basically running a dogfighting ring out of his property in Virginia. Right. Dozens of pitbulls all kinds of heinous shit going on with the dogs put killing dogs and sure it was all

Sage:

the shit and the majority of it wasn't really. him. It was his Yeah, it was just people that he used to hang out with and still trying to stay in that same mentality not realizing that he is that he had got out of that.

Genesis:

Wait, what do you say like he didn't actually do anything?

Sage:

No, he provided the space he provided I think but he was the big name that was attached.

Rick:

Right? If I'm not mistaken. I'm looking at the article here and they don't go into like great detail, but it's also the History Channel on a lot of fuck this is the website telling me about the case but basically, it was a dogfighting ring. There it says there were about 50 dogs that were part of this fighting ring is three was it co conspirators where they were running the dogfighting ring but like sage said it was it was Vic's face it was Vic's you know a lot of him that was behind it. Didn't they

Sage:

find like 16 Dog carcasses or something on his property?

Rick:

Yeah. Buried. Yeah. Yeah. Like kill. Yeah, Jesus. Well, and the thing is, though, the reason why Vic was in a lot of trouble too was he actually admitted to killing a lot of the dogs himself. Yeah.

Genesis:

Usually what happens, you know,

Sage:

but you know, but my thing my thing with Vic is because one he's always been one of if not my favorite fucking football player.

Genesis:

He is a quarterback. Right? Yeah.

Sage:

But he went to jail. Did his time came out. And actually better yourself. Okay, he talked he talked to he had to do did what he had to do. And now he's a fucking ambassador for PETA. Really? Yeah. And don't get me wrong. Peter is a terrible fucking organization. Got the problems, but for the most part for what they do. I mean, they try to do things right. And he's an ambassador that but you Caucasian people, like no fuck, Vic. No, I'm I do okay. People can change. Yeah, he fucked up and now he's devoting his life. Yeah, to making up for that. And you still won't give him a pass? Like not not even a pass. But similarly, I You fucked up. Yeah, no, you fuck up. Who's not

Genesis:

giving him a pass? Oh,

Sage:

so many people hate him.

Rick:

In 2019, post the NFL let him be one of the captains in the 2020 Pro Bowl. And there was huge, you know, outrage about it. Because of him trying to do that. But we're talking this man went to jail. I think it was 2007. And he served two years in prison for two years. And then he he is probably one of the not the greatest because our Robert Downey Jr. is probably the greatest comeback story. But Michael Vick went to jail for two years, got clean came back and he they actually let him back in the NFL. He actually played a couple more seasons. Oh, really with the Eagles? And then I think he went to this Steeler that 1.2. But okay, he Yeah, he came back to society. But people still hold that I remember, I have a friend of mine from like old Halo two days, where we were all super close me this guy and his wife all super close. And when I said Michael Vick is like one of my favorite football players of all time, and she's like, well, how can you like him? Like, well, I mean, he paid his debt to society. He's done charities, he's done all this stuff to make those things right. When do we give him a path like or not even not even a path but when we forgive him, right? And she was just like, No, he's awful piece of shit and all that.

Sage:

And it'd be those same other funders, who are diehard Ben Roethlisberger fans. This man has been accused of raping women in bathroom stalls three times, the first time maybe that shit didn't happen. Second time. Third time you underwriting people.

Genesis:

I can't speak for everybody that's still like posing any kind of hate towards Vic. But like I didn't know, the redemption story that he had there. And I bet a lot of people don't either.

Rick:

But they don't wanna listen. No, you try to explain that to them. And they don't they don't

Genesis:

care. Absolutely, absolutely. I can totally see that, you know, thing. But I think, at least for me, it's not that I'm the All Knowing of all the dealings of like celebrities. But the fact that I didn't know that, to me makes it feel more genuine, of like, of these actions that you guys are telling me about him doing it. Because the fact that it's not being super publicized, it feels more like a genuine act that he did you know what I mean? He

Sage:

honestly is a good dude. He recognized he made a mistake. That's where people have it happens. He's human. He owned up to it took complete fucking control of his life. Alright, look, he did his time. And while he was doing his time, he talked to people got counseling, and then talk to PETA. And I was like, and became really good with him to where, you know, I want to advocate to this, to make sure nobody else makes the same mistakes I made.

Genesis:

I appreciate somebody going to that level of extent to rectify, you know, past mistakes, I think, problem with a lot of things that we see. I mean, it's hard to I don't think there's any coming back from some of these other actors or, you know, celebrities that we talked, you know, there might there's no redemption path for some of them. And I think that's, that will be

Sage:

the crazy part is if you look in the eyes of society, and when I'm actually society, I'm speaking more about caucus people. Now, right. It's easier to come back from killing a person than herding a dog. I don't know

Genesis:

if I would just put that only on the caucus. Nah.

Rick:

They made they made a whole show saying don't fuck with cats. I mean, I grant No, they're not dogs but like the all the people that they interviewed on that show were not anything else other than the caucus mountains people.

Genesis:

I mean, you seen that documentary, right?

Sage:

Yeah, the document that I started documenting documentaries fire.

Rick:

Yeah, it was really good.

Sage:

But people from from that background are more willing to forgive somebody who killed several people, as opposed to somebody who killed several dogs.

Rick:

We have people that are out there that think John Wayne Gacy is one of the the hottest men alive. But Mike but like and we have people that think Jeffrey Dahmer is like, you know,

Sage:

Casey, well, this movie just came out with two years ago, Ted Bundy.

Rick:

Yes, yes. And

Sage:

yeah, Zac Efron portrayed that Ted Bundy that guy friends these either good looking dude. So yeah, women were going crazy about it. But they were just portraying how it actually was when it happened. When it happened. He was in the news for killing several women. And women are going crazy like oh, no, I still love him. I treat him like he's a serial killer for killing women.

Rick:

Yeah, who's the CO leader that convinced people to kill in the handsome Yes, him Yeah. him didn't didn't get married while in prison or something like that.

Genesis:

People loved him after the fact.

Rick:

So you're telling me that those sacks of shit can be loved and forgiven and all that but Michael Vick can't?

Genesis:

I'm not telling you that I'm just saying that it's not only white people, and

Rick:

I bet you if I go on Facebook right now do a poll. Like do you forgive my Vic? How many? I bet you a lot of money. All the noes are we're going to be white women, because

Sage:

black people are like dogs. But if we have to pick between a dog and the human, we're picking the human every time

Rick:

right? We don't value a dog's life. Although I will tell you my mom's dog peanut. I like peanut a lot more than some people.

Sage:

You like peanut a lot more. But let's say there was a volcano or some shit. Right? And you have to save peanut or the girl you're dating. You're saving the girl you're dating. Well, of

Rick:

course the girl didn't but I mean, if I had to choose between peanut or a random stranger I would I just value human life a little more. Not saying dogs don't deserve to

Sage:

lose it but a dog is I love dogs. Honestly. If we were if reincarnation exists, I want to come back as a dog. I really do. Because your

Genesis:

expectations and you're already a bitch.

Sage:

Okay, whatever money as a dog your expectations are so fucking low. Like I ain't gotta worry about shit. I just get to sleep. Barca some shift from here to there and chill. Right?

Rick:

No, like people taking care of you. Like that's not that's not your problem. Like, did I get my food? Like that's all that's all that matter?

Genesis:

I mean, cats have a little bit better chance. I would rather come back I don't care about shit. Yeah, they really? Yeah, they I mean, they don't care about you. Okay, so with Michael Vick. Well, so now let me ask you this though. Because like in staying with the topic as far as the separation like at the time before the redemption though. What were your feelings? And like, was he still your favorite athlete during the

Rick:

entrepot I brought

Sage:

the jerseys. I've never stopped rocking.

Rick:

I still I still hate. Yeah, because the man

Sage:

runs for 440 You know how impressive that is?

Rick:

Jen, you have to understand. Mike Vick literally changed the game of football. Since he joined the league, I mean, this man he is the reason why there's a phrase an out of pocket passer or out of pocket. The first real hybrid? Yeah, he was the first one that could really throw and one at the same. Oh, anyone accurate

Sage:

on the run? Ain't nobody open. Cool. I'm about to break everybody's ankles.

Genesis:

did all this come out mid season though or was his career like learning was retired?

Sage:

His career was already it was like, season four or five. He was already deep in the season

Rick:

because he he joined in 2000. Yeah, he joined in 2001. And he was arrested in 2007. He was so he was six years in Italy when this happened,

Genesis:

which is close to the end of athlete right in the Football League.

Rick:

That's only six years he played until 27 2015. Sorry. Okay. cuz I mean more like in football like, okay, Tom Brady is 45 right now. Right. And he's about to play another season. Yeah, but

Genesis:

he's different than most

Sage:

football. But here's the crazy part. This crazy part, actually a little bit before that started. Ray Lewis legit kill to do. Everybody knows nobody cares

Genesis:

wait was he convicted?

Sage:

No no his bodyguard got convicted. But every story that comes out about it. Everybody knows it was him

Genesis:

you know I'm sorry he's gonna he also

Sage:

beat up Chile from fucking TLC. Nobody. Nobody gave a fuck. Two years after they went to jail. This motherfucker got inducted into the NFL Hall of Fame.

Genesis:

Ray Lewis did Yes. Oh, yeah. Like why the favoritism?

Sage:

That's what I'm saying when you piss off white women. Like he didn't kill Ray Lewis didn't kill dogs. He he killed a dude. And he beat up a black chick. They're like

Genesis:

asking the question,

Sage:

had he had he did anything to any type of pet or any type of white caucus? He's asked. But I can't even say caucus because Ben Roethlisberger. Yeah, cereal fucking raper still fucking out here. He's been in the Hall of Fame. He's a fucking treasure.

Rick:

Yeah, and I think all of his victims were white. Yeah, I might do. Some people. I won't specify who but some people value animals lives over. Right. But I understand where they're coming from. Because in a sense, animals are far more defensive.

Sage:

I feel like I feel it's more of American thing because yeah, dogs or pets here, but they're fucking food other places.

Genesis:

Yeah, but in those other places. Have you seen the way they treat birds? We don't treat birds bad here. Well, I'm just saying it's not like they have just an ultimate disrespect for all animals. It's just that particular animal.

Sage:

I've only treated a bird both once in my life. And that wouldn't I gotta hear that. And that wasn't me. That was my. That was my cousin.

Genesis:

Hmm. It sounds like what Ray Lewis said about his bodyguard. No, no, no, I killed a person. But it wasn't my body.

Sage:

No. Okay, so my cousin is a certified certifiable psychopath. Okay, he's friends in the family. He's been to jail, maybe six or seven times? Jesus. We were I think we were like, 10 at the time. Dude, I was a kid who I used to choke out fucking adults. Because I was I was wiring so I had a move that I would do like whenever anybody got them on Earth. Wait, take turns they back. I mean, granted, Yeah, cuz I knew they had muscle on me. I went back to win a fight. So wait, did he turn it back? So he turned around, I'm jumping on the back and I put him in a fucking pool. And that's it and choke them bitches out.

Rick:

Well, speaking of people who choke people out for a living Hulk Hogan, I don't know if either of you are wrestling fans or just to be Yeah,

Sage:

actually, a good majority of my childhood wrestling fans, I mean, wrestling superheroes or whatever you want to call them. Turned out to be terrible fucking people.

Rick:

That might be more indicative of you than then the wrestlers themselves.

Sage:

Hulk Hogan, one of my all time favorite wrestlers.

Genesis:

Yeah, he was definitely an icon for me as a kid. I mean, I watched all his movies, my dad huge with Hulk Hogan. And so like he was definitely a huge part of my childhood. Yeah.

Rick:

Stone Cold man. Yeah,

Sage:

but that later was later Do

Rick:

you guys remember I'm younger than you two so obviously I went

Sage:

a year vich like

Rick:

aren't you to like 40 No no, but when I when I got into wrestling I mean it was it the Attitude Era so you know what I mean? Stone Cold, the rock, triple age and the

Sage:

HOW DID YOU degenerate? Had you not recovered hope before that though?

Rick:

Well, because I didn't. I didn't get into wrestling until I saw a stone cold. Or no as the game WrestleMania 2002 With

Sage:

all the movies, the hope did no holds barred. No suburban Commando.

Genesis:

Turning nanny. Yeah, Mr. Manning.

Rick:

I don't I'm not familiar with anything. You're saying.

Sage:

How Hogan was a fucking icon. Yeah,

Rick:

I think the first Ever movie that I saw whether whether wrestler was a star was probably the rundown with the rock. And Shawn when Scott

Genesis:

Hulk Hogan do that was bad I don't think I

Sage:

remember he super racist all

Genesis:

he racism

Rick:

you seen the meme where in the group chat I've posted it several times with Chuck where it's it's the Hulk Hogan right and and I and spray paint also was trailer

Genesis:

Jesus What did he do that was racist

Rick:

I had something to do with his daughter right if I'm not mistaken yeah and she was like dating a black dude I think and basically he just went on this long tirade obviously I can't say exactly what he said but he basically was dropping heart Ares and who Yeah, saying like f f and words and he says, I mean, I don't have double standards. I mean, I am a racist to a point F and words. But then when it comes to nice people and shit, whatever. I guess we're all racist. effing and words, like he went aggressive. You know?

Genesis:

Did he say this?

Sage:

Was a recorded video call. Phone call.

Genesis:

He got caught. Yeah. Okay. Well,

Rick:

I actually know this article says that the whole scandal actually stems from a sex tape. Where

Sage:

Yeah, yeah, it came because Brooke Hogan had a sexy when he was in Hong Kong and also had a sex tape. But the Brooke Hogan thing came from when he saw her succeed. And Guinea car Hell, he caught her pissed. And then that's when the sex tape she was with a black guy. Yeah, that's when.

Genesis:

Gotcha.

Rick:

And you know, he actually sued the company that released that video. That said he sued them for like 100 million in one. Hogan did yeah. Yeah, he

Genesis:

I guess I mean, I mean, that's kind of a separate thing. But

Rick:

yeah, he sued Gawker Media.

Sage:

Yeah, it legit sucked his I was a fan of him. He turned out to be a racist. Yeah. Ultimate worry. He was a fucking woman beater fan of Randy Savage. Also racist as

Genesis:

well you're ruining all my

Rick:

my wrestlers. And you know what's crazy all the people he's saying that it raises if you would have made me bet money 20 years ago I was a stone cold is easily the biggest racist. He's like one of the

Genesis:

guys. That's your stereotype playing into that.

Rick:

He definitely bro come on. Looks like looks like a Klan member.

Genesis:

So as far as Hulk Hogan know what kind of I imagine he's done after that when

Sage:

the backlash when the backlash happened? He wasn't really, you know, prevalent. Sure, sure. So, I mean, it was news, but it wasn't big news. Right?

Genesis:

It wasn't like that. Me. Yeah, I guess because at the end of his career, so like, or like, he didn't have much of a career, I think, well, I don't know if this was after a reality show.

Sage:

Oh, this was this was this is way after everything. Okay,

Genesis:

so he just basically broke hearts.

Rick:

Yeah, this was back in 2011 2012. Like, 20 Yeah. 2010 to 2012. Somewhere in that area. Where everything and you know, he had, he had kind of had like a resurgence in wrestling. But then I think they flat out banned him in the web.

Sage:

And I'd like to do that hurt that hurt a lot when I Yeah.

Rick:

I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz he. I mean, he's very important to this sport. I feel like you can't really talk about wrestling without him being a part of the conversation as far as like transcending characters in the show, but he definitely tarnish his name. You know? Yeah,

Genesis:

I think that I mean, from my perspective, yeah, I mean, I'll definitely think about him differently. That's for sure. I mean, it's not like he's part of anything or anything that I would really watch. Now it

Sage:

is i i would i would go back and watch suburban Commando.

Genesis:

Oh, I don't know if that holds up. No,

Sage:

no, no, I know that acting is going to be terrible. But I would still go back and watch it just awful. Yeah, the style just alone.

Rick:

To move along, because I know we're getting kind of long here. Last two. Now this one I think Mel Gibson Mel Hardcore rant. He's ex girlfriend to let people know that aren't aware. Basically, he got into a conversation with his ex and just was gone on our rant saying

Sage:

before that though, because he was already getting slapped for making the Passion of the Christ because he's anti semitic.

Rick:

Well, right. Well, so that's, yeah, that yeah, that's next. But that's

Sage:

no that was before that wasn't after that we'll definitely before

Rick:

His Passion of the Christ

Sage:

came out in 2007. Right. He

Rick:

was in his anti semitic stuff was 2006.

Genesis:

Yeah, it's kind of like fucking shit with the shape of yours. This is when he was against

Sage:

the ship with that girl was like 2010.

Rick:

Yes, yeah, you're right. So yeah, the the anti semitic. Well, hold on. Okay, so All right, well, we'll start with the thing. He's, he's had first write the anti semitic shit. So in 2006, he basically just was saying, you know, the age old things of Jews won the world, and they're responsible for all the world and shit like that. Then this was all when he was stopped for the UI. So then, in 2010, he gets into an argument with the mother of his child. And basically it was rant about hers and see, I actually have the actual quote, obviously, I can't say

Sage:

like a slit and some other shit. Yay. Call

Rick:

her up, pig. And I hope you get raped by a pack of Edwards. Oh, yeah, I'm going to come and burn your house down. But you will blow me first. Yeah, hardcore shit. Yeah, he was going hardcore her. And, I mean, there's all kinds of stuff saying that there was a custody dispute there was there were allegations that he abused her and even knocked on her teeth. And she basically made the recordings because she was afraid for her life. So this is all pretty hardcore. And this is one of those things where it's not just racism, like it's just he also is like, really aggressive. I mean, this is only 10 years ago, or 12 years ago. I mean, and that movie was that Santa movie he was just in. And it was two years ago. Yes. It wasn't like it was a decade later. This was only eight years later, where he kind of, and I'm pretty sure he was at some of them before that, too.

Genesis:

He was director of one of my favorite movies. Hacksaw Ridge. So

Sage:

I'm bringing that up. Where you're passing? Yeah,

Rick:

I mean, this is lethal weapon. This is Braveheart. Braveheart Yan. What the patriot like this dude is in some of the best movies ever. And he's the director of what was it a Apocalypto? Well, that's, yeah, it was fucking though. You know, it was wild. Yeah, I still haven't seen Passion of the Christ. And I kind of don't want to see it. Because I kind of don't I don't need to see that.

Sage:

Here's, here's the crazy part. I saw passionate Christ in theaters. And I remember in my head before I even go before we went there. I'm like, Dude, what trailers are you by the show? before? And the craziest part is, I cannot remember what trailers they showed before.

Genesis:

There was no train. That was the only movie that didn't have trailers.

Sage:

Trailers, could you possibly show?

Rick:

Yeah, that's one that I mean, I don't want to see that movie. Because I feel like, I don't

Sage:

need to see that. No, no, that's a lot. Like if you didn't look into the what happened during the filming of that movie. There's a lot that happened that got a lot of people even more religious than they were before. Like the guy looking like Henry chorizo. Like, he dislocated both his shoulders. I think like three different times they'll mean that like he kept getting fucked up playing Jesus. And it's

Genesis:

all like superstitious things you do

Sage:

is a whole lot like if you got the time just look at it. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah,

Rick:

I think I will go down that that rabbit hole because

Genesis:

a crow

Rick:

Yeah, yeah, that's how many people did they are two people died from that right

Genesis:

now just Brandon randomly. The leakers Mel Gibson that like I wasn't really surprised, like he always had that sort of just that little tinge of evil in his eye. Like from when I first seen him in Mad Max. I always kind of knew something was off with this dude. I mean, he was a great actor like and I followed his career. You know, any movie that Mel Gibson was in? I was there for it up until he I can lost his mind. And I because I thought the DUI was his. I thought that was the first. Or maybe that was just the first for me when I heard him just losing his shit.

Sage:

No Do you Do you I was the first.

Genesis:

That was the first Yeah, do I was okay then yeah so that's yeah then I was I was current in the time then when that went all went down and like if this was before I think any of my celebrity I wouldn't say heroes but like celebrities that I appreciated their works like that was probably one of the first ones that was really coming to light about like, wow, this person is a real piece of shit. Yeah, cuz

Sage:

Alec Baldwin did something similar when he snapped on his daughter over the phone.

Rick:

Number Yeah, that one I'm not familiar with. Oh, yeah, he although he's just constantly in the news for the wrong reasons.

Sage:

What sucks because Alec Baldwin on 30 rant was amazing.

Genesis:

He's an interesting actor, that's for sure.

Rick:

Yeah, he did. Dude. He's just constantly I mean, he killed the person on the side of that movie. Oh, yeah. Forget about that. His wife might possibly have lied about her Spanish heritage. She may not actually be Spanish. For kin, you know, he's got a I think he has a few allegations of abuse, like sexual abuse. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Kinda. Yeah. It's not really good to be a ball and right now. At least not that well. I'm gonna

Sage:

go around and be fair. We're gonna be Billy Baldwin.

Rick:

Yeah. All right.

Genesis:

What time does he figure them all out?

Sage:

Billy Baldwin, I believe is the one with Pauly Shore. That movie can't think of that movie.

Genesis:

Oh, wow. What's his only movie?

Sage:

I love bow though.

Genesis:

But did Mel Gibson ever try to redeem himself from the Oh, no. Statement?

Rick:

Just the old rehab apology. I'm sorry. Okay. He didn't really go too far in his What is it revival tour. As far as like,

Sage:

just started coming out with straight to DVD movies. Like I remember right after it happened. We're not right after maybe a year and a half after it happened. His first movie was get the green goo.

Genesis:

Oh, yeah, that's right. He didn't see I don't think much success until probably Hacksaw Ridge. Can we not bring up that one? I have to because like, that's what I'm using as my current stance on him. Because I didn't notice at first or like beforehand that that was his like, he directed that

Sage:

film. It's such a powerful movie. Such a powerful. Yeah.

Genesis:

So like for him. It's, I think I think differently of him. For sure. I don't think I'll go out of my way to like, be a fan or call myself a fan of his it's just one of those that man that kind of sucks. That sucks that you had to turn out that way. As an actor.

Sage:

Yes. But he He's proven. He's as a director, he makes some awesome as fuck movies.

Genesis:

He's got a he's got an interesting vision. Yeah.

Rick:

Granted, he has some of the best movies. Right? But he's also not someone that I don't really need to see anything else from? Yeah, I

Sage:

mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't get a beer I could do.

Genesis:

Right. Get a beer with you.

Rick:

Right, he would rather you go hook up with a pack of you will go go with. So okay, I thought about doing one more. I'm gonna throw an audible do two more. But we'll we'll speed through these two. And these are the last one. This one will be kind of quick. Gina Khurana. I don't know if either of you know who that is.

Sage:

Yeah, she was a UFC fighter turned actor. She was in the Star Wars TV show. And then she came out and said some shit in the Trump party esque. That painted her in a in a bad light and they cut her from the show. I can't remember what she actually

Rick:

I do. I do have the tweet. She tweeted a famous photo from a Nazi rally in 1936. Right. And we did what she tweeted. She she tweeted a famous photo from a Nazi rally in 1936.

Genesis:

Okay, that's weird.

Rick:

Right? And so the reason why she tweeted this was because she was basically trying to say that a conservative today is a lot like a Jewish person during the Holocaust, basically trying to say that she she was basically trying to say that like you were like if you spoke against the crowd, you were considered an outsider or whatever, right. Her tweet said Jews were beaten in the street. It's not by Nazi soldiers, but by their neighbors, even by their children. Because history is edited. Most people today don't realize that to get to the point where Nazi soldiers had easily round up 1000s of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views? She's basically saying like, you know, if you have a different opinion from everyone else, then they're trying to make you out to be the bad guy. They're trying to make you as evil as possible. So

Sage:

like I said, it was a Trump shit. Because that's what Oh, yeah.

Rick:

I mean, it's Republican said for sure. I don't know Trump. But no, that's when it came out. Boy, yeah, it was definitely in 20. This is 2021, early last year. So I mean, it was it was more of like, you can't be and I to an extent I agree with her. Like, now, I don't know about the comparison. The Jews thing. I feel like that was weird. I wouldn't say that taste. Yeah. When they did that,

Genesis:

to, like, hammer it in with a pitcher as well. Yeah.

Rick:

But to like what she said, I like her, I get it. Because during that time, you know, being a conservative or a Republican, wasn't really easy to do on social media platforms, right? You could you can't just flat out say what you want to say on those platforms. I wonder why? Well, she proved it. Right. Right. They literally prove their point, because she got fired from Disney. Right? She lost everything her agency, let her go on all that shit. And she's also a perfect example of how, instead of trying to get her fired, people should have educated her because now that she lost her job at Disney, she now has been picked up as a writer and an actress for the daily wire. I don't know if you guys know what that is. But the daily wire is Ben Shapiro's program was that

Sage:

falls in line with the whole morality clause that are in contracts, part of the morality. You're not supposed to speak out publicly on your views.

Rick:

I mean, I get it, when you have that clause that's in there, I get it. You probably should just not tweet at all, unless it's about the show you're on. But I also disagree with that to the I hate the fact that companies can make you do

Sage:

what you mean, make you they didn't have to sign it. Yeah, but then

Rick:

she might not have gotten the job. If she did well, then that's her choice. Yeah. But if you're Gina Carano, and you're about to get signed on to the Mandalorian. She wasn't your show, right?

Sage:

He wasn't. I mean, she was a UFC fighter. She had one movie haywire before that. That was okay.

Rick:

As that's exactly my point that we're getting offered a giant roll.

Sage:

Yeah. And then you're gonna take and then she reads the fucking contract the morality clauses in there. If she felt that that went against her fucking morals, then don't sign it. You can't sign it after reading it, and then say something and then get mad that they enforce that.

Rick:

I get what you're saying. Right? Because it was in her agreement. It

Sage:

was a personal choice that she ran.

Genesis:

Well, I think what I was trying to say is though, that caution exists right?

Sage:

Now that because you're you're telling

Rick:

people that they can't they can't speak their own opinion on their own,

Sage:

that causes there to protect their movies and their franchises. Because they want to keep their franchises and movies neutral. And by you saying this? And let's say like, you have X amount of people who are diehards for the show, just for her. Now you're making the show a political thing. It's not supposed to be that.

Genesis:

Well, like you said, in the case of House of Cards, like they said the creators got 39 million. I mean, we're under the assumption that was most likely due to having to cancel it or proceed without them knowing that there's going to be a revenue loss without the main.

Sage:

Yeah, I was, I will be under the assumption that it will be that he broke the morality clause of the show. And because of that, they can't finish it with him. So guess he has to fucking pay? I mean, yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's there for a reason. Yes, it's there to cover their ass. But at the same time was there to kind of cover your ass if you read the contract.

Genesis:

Like, hey, but it's also it's poorly written too, because I'm sure it's just very vague. Like, don't express views. Period.

Sage:

No, no, no, it's not that it's not that because honestly, every Disney star, like on the TV show, whatever. They all had some or other classes. I remember Jessica Alba. She spoke out about it because she had to set a morality clause when she was doing Seventh Heaven. Because you're doing a show about you know, religion and stuff. So you can't be out here portraying sexuality and stuff like Right, right, right. It diminishes the show like you're here for the show. You locked in for the show, we believe You, we believe that we want you here for a long time. So this is what we expect of you.

Rick:

I mean, I get that, but I completely I hate that because I know I understand that. I'm not saying I don't understand it. I think we all get it. It doesn't mean it's a good idea though. It's a stupid because it I feel like it's making people be things that they aren't. Right. Like it's making, you know, not saying that you necessary how's it

Sage:

making you be anything? It's not making you do? It's not making you being anything? It's just saying that, hey, don't Oh, you're a representative. Yeah, don't express your opinions on social media. But you can still you can still vote the way you want. You can still protest the way you want. You can do whatever the hell you want. So don't put it on social media. Because I know because Disney, that's a staple and Disney contracts. I mean, that is that is a that is 100% of staple in Disney contracts. The morality clauses there. Anybody who's worked is in the talks about it all the fucking time. It is 100% there.

Genesis:

Now, Rick, let me ask you just in sort of questioning your defense, what do you think a company can do? Where their actor actors are assets, and their actions can lead to direct loss and revenue for not only the studio, but for the other actors and development teams. And like all of them, it can all come crumble down to a single asset. So how else can they protect the product? Or do they? Or do you think they should? That's just something that you need to eat from time to time?

Rick:

It depends on what the person does or says, right?

Genesis:

It doesn't because the direct loss comes from the viewership. So if majority of viewers are not tuning in, because of the asset, then it doesn't matter what was sad. It's not like you can argue what was was right or not, it's just how the general viewership is gonna.

Sage:

Listen. Let's say you do, you spent 2030 years building this brand. And then you hire somebody who is a main staples brand, and may not be the main face of the brand, but is a face of the brand. You're gonna let them just say whatever the fuck they want to then come back on Monday to record like, you just people are going to associate what you said, with this brand. And that's going to bring us down. Right?

Rick:

See, here's the reason why I don't and the reason I don't buy that is because it happens all the time. Right? Where people will say or do something that it just rubs people the wrong way and people just decide, You know what, I don't want to watch the Mandalorian anymore, right? I'm gonna keep the Mandalorian you're contradicting yourself, though. I'm not because you got it. You gotta let me finish. But Pedro, Pasco, right, Pedro pass. He did the exact same thing Gina Carano. Did where he compared Trump supporters to Nazis. Right. And there were tons of people that were like, I mean, still to this day, there are campaigns to get Pedro Pascal removed from the Mandalorian he should be fired he should not be on the show. All I'm saying is if you're going to get rid of one person for doing the exact same thing you need to get rid of everyone for doing something similar because Mandalorian lost money because of him doing that tweet and this was before Gina Corrado true they did not do anything I can agree with

Sage:

that is what his what you're neglecting paid your Costco does not sign more than one season contracts for anything that he does.

Rick:

What does that have to do with it though? So like,

Sage:

no, no, no, let me finish. So by the time that finished by the time that came out that contract and already been over and done with he wanted to come back, they probably sat down I was like, Alright, look, if you're gonna do this, they added probably some more stipulations to their funding like look, you can't say this then Has he said anything after that?

Rick:

As far as just like anything or your time I'll just

Sage:

Yeah, anything detrimental like that after that point?

Rick:

I that I don't know. Because I do not follow

Sage:

Pedro the only signs once you meet him and the dude who the moon night series, no matter what, they only signed contracts one year at a time, because they don't want to be beholden to any corporation or anybody like that. So the second they get done filming their, their contract technically is they can get away with whatever they weren't. At that point. They whatever happened in between that depending on how egregious it was. They sit down and talk with the corporation and figure out okay, we want to bring you back but if We do this that this has to happen. They can agree or not agree.

Genesis:

Right? That Jean also kept doing a lot of different controversial posts. And it wasn't just like the one thing. No, no, that was just the tip of the iceberg

Rick:

potentially in her case, it also didn't help that she wouldn't back down from it. Right.

Sage:

personal accountability comes into effect here.

Rick:

Right. And I understand that I completely understand that. But the thing is, keep that same energy. Like don't don't pick and choose when you want to have them around, you know, who say they

Sage:

aren't for all we know. I don't know what she's saying. But well, we know Gina could have signed on for three seasons. Without knowing what may happen in these next three years.

Rick:

Well, she was I mean, she was fired season two that I'm saying

Sage:

so she could have she could have signed on for three seasons cease to happen. Oh, they still had her for season three, under contract for season three. She violated that contract. Maybe they did try to play ball with her. She but as you said she wasn't backing down. So you're like, alright, well, fuck.

Genesis:

She still had it till you see her most recent contract with the war in Ukraine.

Rick:

Oh, she's full blown on the right now. Like, I mean, although I think I think it's also she was always on the right. I think now she's just not afraid to say anything, because she's got daily wire back in her. She's not afraid of losing a job anymore.

Sage:

That's the smartest thing like if you're an actor, and you know what not even know. But if you're an actor, period, the smartest thing to do is to sign one year contracts and just keep going every year, we got to renew. Let me

Rick:

throw that out there. Again, I understand what you're saying. I think he's dogshit though, because I think when you are not, I guess I just wish that people could be separate from their careers when they're not currently working. Like it's not. I get that. That's why I'm saying I wish we lived in a world like that. Because I know

Genesis:

we do live in that world, though. Generally speaking, people like us, it doesn't matter. Now. You could probably make claims for someone or than others. But that working at the gas station, gas station is gonna give a shit what he's tweeting about. We're talking about public

Sage:

seat figure. You can't even say that. You can't even say, well, because you have these regular Joe schmoes who say shit out of pocket, and then somebody posts that fucking viral less than a week they're fired.

Genesis:

Yeah, yeah. What barbecue Karen was barbecue.

Sage:

We have tons of people who just happen to barbecue Becky, that's it. You have tons of people who just happens to they say shit out of pocket. going again, it does a gender or race and be like, Nah, you gotta go.

Genesis:

If you happen to become viral in that sense, yes, you will get affected as well. But not all the time. And not generally speaking. I'm talking like the celebrities these are they can directly impact the revenue of whatever they're a part of.

Sage:

Yeah, they can, which is why the morality causes there.

Genesis:

Yeah, and that's what I'm trying to explain or trying to, to argue to Derek or Rick Fitch. So this is,

Rick:

again, I get I get what you guys are saying. I feel like we're just talking in circles.

Sage:

No, you're saying is terrible. Like you don't like it and like you understand that but you don't like it? Right. But the hard truth is is good business is covering their ass. Look at it. They didn't cover if they didn't cover their eyes. And they kept

Genesis:

replying to the, to him saying that he wishes the world was like, wasn't like that. But it's not. It's only it's mainly only towards celebrities. Yeah, because they

Sage:

are big enough draw.

Rick:

Right? Like when you watch the show, you're watching it for this celebrity. Right. But I feel like maybe because I don't put celebrities I mean, except for Kojima. Of course. I don't really put celebrities in general. To me in my opinion. Nobody is bigger than anybody know than anybody else. Like, like I've seen celebrities before in person. I'm like, okay, cool. He's just another asshole. Like he's just a human.

Sage:

That's the funny part. Because if you look at it from a business part, nobody's bigger than the show. Yeah. So they have to be like yeah, you can feel this way you can talk about it but at least we wait two contracts up

Genesis:

I don't think generally we were putting these actors and as high of a pedestal No, we once did anyways, we aren't

Sage:

but they still are the face of whatever show that they're representing.

Rick:

Right? Because, like you said, if if someone tweets something or if someone says something, there's gonna be a mob of people that are gonna be like you you're gonna be okay with this person working on your show you Is this what you represent? And it's like, no. Like, the person is saying what they say, for what they wanted to say at that time. And I understand the company has to protect their, their IP or whatever you want to call it, right? They have to protect whatever they are in charge of. But I just, I never

Sage:

I agree with that. I do get what you're saying. Because let's let's not forget Disney's a bunch of hypocrites, because I was just

Genesis:

got some nerve to do this like given

Sage:

Walt Disney hated the Jews with a passion

Rick:

that Family Guide don't we cryo frozen? So? Are the Jews dead?

Genesis:

Recently and ongoing conspiracy theory that he is frozen somewhere so yeah,

Sage:

he hated the Jews with a passion but it in their defense role for what we don't know. Maybe they could be trying to get away from it, you know? And then And then by you said it bring this negative

Rick:

I think you're you hit the nail on the head with with Egina specifically because they very well could be trying to move away from that legacy. And so the last thing you want is this chick representing you. And she's spouting off about Jews and conservatives like you probably don't want someone like that associated with your business. Right? Which I get it. Gene is probably a bad example. For someone that was

Genesis:

I personally don't really give a shit about her.

Sage:

I look at everything from a business standpoint. Like if you're a celebrity, everything that you do has to be looked at from a business standpoint. Because your that is your life, like your daily life is your fucking business. I think that you have to conduct yourself in that manner.

Genesis:

Or the job. Yeah,

Rick:

I think the real weird thing is I like all these celebrities that get in trouble. Like, you don't have a team of people with you by now that like goes over your tweets before you hit that shit. Oh, they do. And

Sage:

they got a team people. A lot of these people surround themselves well, yes, man.

Rick:

Yes, for sure. For sure, who aren't really

Sage:

looking out for their best interest. They're just there for the fucking check.

Rick:

Yeah, for sure. Where they're just like, You know what? Yeah, go ahead and do it. I'm getting paid. So what do I care what you tweet. Now? Last one. Real quick. Michael Richards, aka Kramer from Seinfeld. I don't know if you guys are familiar with. I know what he do. Are you familiar?

Genesis:

I'm very familiar.

Rick:

Okay. Okay. So for those that aren't he, you know, Seinfeld, the TV show ended. And so, Kramer decided to do stand up comedy. didn't go over too. Well. There were a couple of people talking. They were only when they were heckling him. I think they were all they were. Okay, well, then they deserve it. No, I'm kidding. So he was on stage. He was on the stage. And yeah, he just started spelling the N word. See,

Sage:

I don't I don't give him a pause for the fact that as a comedian. You should be able to dismantle people. Yeah, way better than going to racial slurs. For sure.

Rick:

He should be able to. But now but on the other side, though. He wasn't a comedian for very long.

Sage:

Well, that happened after the Seinfeld ended and he was on Seinfeld. What? 10 years.

Genesis:

Yeah, but he wasn't a comedian before Seinfeld. Right?

Rick:

He was never really a comedian. Oh, he wasn't? No, no. He

Genesis:

got found on a fucking dating show. Oh, I didn't know. He was a contestant on like, one of those old school. The dating shows. Untested one. What date? Would you take me? online date

Sage:

or something? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't know that. I thought he was a comedian beforehand.

Rick:

The show was what really? Always No, actually hold on. Maybe we might both be wrong here. So it says he. He began his career as a stand up comedian. Stepping into the spotlight when he appeared on Billy Crystal's first TV special. It was in 1998 when Seinfeld ended that he returned to stand up. So he will end and he was a stand up for eight years before the incident. So yeah, he definitely should have been able to.

Sage:

As a comedian, you should definitely be able to just destroy somebody without resulting resorting to differently

Genesis:

even if he resorted to not handling it. Well, like he went that route. Yeah. He chose that route that night. I don't think he realized that. Cameras were in cell phones at that time.

Sage:

He woke up and chose violence.

Rick:

Oh. And you know, I mean, that was in 2006. And he was in the B movie The very next year. And then, yeah, he was in. Nobody watched that. No, he's been in a couple of things since that incident. He's in Curb Your Enthusiasm.

Genesis:

He wasn't curb and they brought him with what happened.

Sage:

though. I don't really feel like that affected his career too much. Because if you really look at Seinfeld, nobody really did anything after that.

Genesis:

I mean, Jerry Seinfeld's like, well, as far as bank accounts go, I mean,

Sage:

but yeah, he's he's Jerry Seinfeld. Outside of him outside of having Jason Alexander. Maybe. Was it Mary Drea, Dreyfus,

Rick:

or? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Genesis:

I think he had a couple of shows, but nothing really long standing.

Rick:

No, she was on Veep. Veep is he?

Genesis:

Oh, yeah. That one that's

Sage:

outside of those three. Nobody really did anything from that show.

Rick:

As far as Michael Richards goes, I mean, he definitely should have handled it better. But I don't think it really hurt him that much.

Sage:

I honestly don't think his career was gonna go anywhere after this show. And

Genesis:

yeah, he's did his

Rick:

own show at one point, but it didn't go anywhere. It lasted seven episodes.

Sage:

Like I'm saying, I don't I don't see his career actually going because he was good for the show. But outside of that, I'm not seeing him really being good for any movie or anything outside of that.

Genesis:

Outside of like, what actually happened? Do you think it would be different had his career continued? Like no, would it what his actions make a difference to you if you continue to be successful and whatever?

Sage:

I think we will still be wondering who the fuck is it Kramer right now? Because it just the level of comedy stepped up so much after the Seinfeld show. That what he was bringing to the table just wasn't there. Because more more and more black comics. Got notoriety finally. So then, so then you got the you got the Kevin Hart's you got the earthquakes. You got the Dave Chappelle girls who were really just going out there and not just telling jokes, but telling stories. In the vein of Eddie Murphy and Richard Pryor. Were they they weren't just telling jokes. They were telling stories about their life.

Genesis:

So are you saying we needed Michael Richards racism to elevate black comics?

Sage:

No, I'm saying that. I'm saying right when he did that, that's when that changing in comedy kind of happened. Because he was just up there telling jokes. But the storyteller comic started to get a rise at that point. Because you look at you look at like Bill Burr Milburn. Bill Barr tells jokes, but he tells stories

Genesis:

about what's gonna do with Michael Richards. His his, his version

Sage:

of comedy would not have survived is what I'm saying.

Genesis:

Oh, you're saying he would have failed? Regardless. Yeah.

Sage:

Because he didn't know how to tell jokes like that. He didn't know how to relate to his actual life and and be that. I don't know, I don't know. vulnerables the word but, sure. But the comedy playing definitely shifted. Right around the time that was coming to life.

Genesis:

I see what you're saying now. Okay.

Rick:

Now I get it. I mean, as far as Michael Richards goes, like he said, I don't think because I mean, even what Jason Alexander his career didn't really take off that much. Jason

Genesis:

No, he wouldn't.

Sage:

Yeah, and he was he was epic and Broadway. He's one of the he's one of the legends of Broadway. Yeah.

Rick:

Yeah, so I mean, who knows? But that is pretty much the end of my list here.

Genesis:

We went on so long Yeah, I wanted to talk about you know, some painters you know

Sage:

almost three hours.

Genesis:

Man, Picasso is a piece of shit. I'll just say that. look him up. He said women are only machines for suffering. Caught in one of my favorite artists Salvador Dali every time.

Sage:

You can't judge people all the fucking time.

Genesis:

Well, you can judge him for his torture of women and physically harming women. And

Sage:

it does suck and it is fucking trash. But the fact that that was socially acceptable back then, it's a part of history.

Genesis:

Maybe it's cold outside. One of my favorite artists Salvador Dali into necrophilia cruelty to animals people. He also was very big into Hitler. What Oh, he's seen he said, he said that was your favorite. His art isn't? is dope. I appreciate his art. He said I often dreamed about Hitler as other men, about women.

Rick:

Oh,

Genesis:

yeah, I didn't know that. His paintings are my favorite pieces of art.

Rick:

Or the way you said his opinion is a work of art.

Genesis:

Yeah, I didn't say that. I mean, this, this, this would have led to probably a huge conversation. But I did want to talk about some of the founding fathers in the creation of like historical American documents, you know, being that they were slave owners yet they're writing documents for sole freedom. And ladies and

Sage:

gentlemen, tune in for part two, in a couple of weeks,

Genesis:

unless we get canceled by then, thank you all for turning into a cringe worthy episode of The Haven exchange. I don't know what the conclusion is here. I feel like we are able to separate the art from the artists I think, between the three of us to some

Sage:

degree is a conclusion. That's more of a feel like you almost have to pick your line and sin at this point, you know,

Genesis:

I know but I hate that it has to be one or none. I think each of these cases need to be looked at individually. And like how and in these, these celebrities, you know, specifically because that's what we we talked about, like they hold something different to us than other people. So like, I don't really care about Gina Carano. I'm not gonna really watch her stuff. Either way. She's an idiot for what she did. But then there's Kevin Spacey where like, I do feel kind of different about his work and I probably would avoid it to the best of my ability.

Sage:

Because Kevin Spacey you know, we have a history of Kevin Spacey. Right? We don't have we don't have that really that big of a history Gina Corrado, Jana Corrado did what the youngsters will say, fumbled the bag.

Genesis:

What they're saying these days. Yeah, she. I don't know what they say.

Sage:

Like she she had it. She knew what she knew, in her contract, what she could and could not say, and say fuck it anyway. But then you have people like John Boyega. Who says that, but he says the things he say are really detrimental. But they're shedding light into areas that Hollywood may not want us to really pay attention to. But he's holding his ground. He's like, No, I'm not. Like he just turned down a rule from fucking Marvel. Because he's like, No, I'm not working with you on to fix this.

Genesis:

Yeah, and that's, that's more power to him. I admire the courage. But I gotta eat. I wouldn't have done that. Yeah,

Rick:

I would have done that either. I get it. The man has principles. But yeah, I mean, I think that is fumbling the bag as well.

Sage:

Not already has three other movie roles lined up.

Genesis:

I mean, yeah. Hey,

Rick:

that's true. He doesn't need Marvel. No, I mean,

Sage:

I mean, Marvel's The money that you want at this point.

Rick:

But he already I mean, obviously Star Wars is owned by the same Yeah.

Sage:

And that's what pissed him off because the way the character there.

Rick:

And that's, but go ahead, dude. I'm gonna mute because then I'm just gonna keep ranting.

Genesis:

You know, really what I'm saying. Like, we have to look at these individually. There's no real like, solid answer to any remove art from the artist because I think it depends on the individual depends on the accusations. You know what the individual actually did? I'm glad to see I think the one shining light I pulled from this at least was, you know, the Michael Vick story. I had no idea, his path to redemption. I'm actually going to look further into that because I soon as you brought up Vic, you know, I'm like that dude.

Sage:

He made a mistake. He acknowledged it and correct it.

Rick:

Yep. Yeah. He went, Yeah, he went the right way. Uh, he went overboard to an extent to make things right. You know, I definitely know. It could just be me as a fanboy. Right. But yeah,

Sage:

and people still give them shit. Like,

Genesis:

I want to see you make that poll on Facebook right now. I don't believe the outcome was gonna be what you think it is.

Sage:

The outcome is gonna be so much vacate. It's gonna be ridiculous. How I want to

Genesis:

say it, I want

Rick:

to post it. I'm just gonna post.

Sage:

Like he really is. He's trying his best he devoted his life to not letting making sure nobody else makes the same mistakes that he did. And people don't want to give him credit. They're like, No, fuck him. He deserves to die.

Genesis:

You're gonna have haters. A

Sage:

majority of people will say that though.

Genesis:

Yeah. unforced Isn't it

Sage:

like that like they aren't human mean, people make mispriced Shit happens.

Genesis:

That's I mean, that's a larger issue. We seem to have trouble with given people pathways to redemption. Not everybody's deserves it. But I think clearly some do.

Rick:

No, I can't make a poll on

Genesis:

j&j ready before you can go ahead. With that. Thank you everybody for tuning in to this week's episode of The Haven exchange podcast. We will see you next week with a brand new topic brand new shenanigans. And we love you all I want

Sage:

to point out before we even started recording, I say, you know, let's keep it under an hour. We're fucking three hours.

Genesis:

I blame you.

Rick:

Maybe 20 was too much. I mean, that's actually with I think I took a couple of days off

Genesis:

by later

Sage:

this is the Haven exchange.

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